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Taking Yourself For a Vegan Lunch, and Other Forms of Activism

Today I met up with lovely Ellys Feather so she could interview me about DGC and veganism in general, focussing in part on activism within my brand. Below is our whole conversation - so great to sit down and chat about food, ethical consumerism, how to be an activist and what more we can do. I've highlighted Ellys' great questions as I know it's a bit of a read, so you can always skim and see if there's any parts you might be particaularly keen on reading. I'm planning on starting a DGC podcast where I'll be having chats like this one with more people so stay tuned x

 

Ellys: Why veganism?
G: I went vegan about 4 years ago. I was raised vegetarian by my parents and I'd never eaten meat, except
from fish and I'd had dairy but when I got my own place I watched a documentary called Cowspiracy
which really resonated with me. I remember it was Hogmanay and I said to myself right on the 1st
January I'm gonna try it and see how it goes and luckily it just stuck. I started watching more
documentaries and I joined various Facebook groups and started learning and meeting people who
taught me more about it and so it just snowballed from there. I could never go back now, I've come so far
that it's just become habit.

It's all about getting into those good habits. What is your drive - animals, environmental, health?
G: For me it started out being about animal welfare 100%. I was your sort of junk food vegan - I was still
eating beige dinners like vegan nuggets and chips, I wasn't thinking about the health side of it or the
environmental impact. Then, the more I learned about it and certainly in the last year, the more the
health and environmental sides of it have come to the forefront for me with all the coverage on climate
change. Also, the more documentaries that come out the more the issues are broadened so people can
see it's not just animals that benefit from a vegan diet but also the planet and your own health. So now I
guess it's more rounded than before when it was just about the animals for me.

Before Dear Green Claes when you first went vegan, did it impact your family and friends at all?
G: Yes I remember when I first went vegan, the reaction was sort of yeah give it a go but it won't last but we
can't see it lasting. I was a massive cheese and chocolate lover so people were sort of saying yeah do it
for January but you'll eventually need your calcium etc. One of my friends has since gone vegetarian and
has said that I played a part in inspiring her to do it - I think she was thinking if you can do it then I can at
least try it! Even my mum has got really interested in Sea Shepherd activism so she's into dolphin and
whale welfare now that she might not have otherwise taken a look at.

What was your inspiration to start DGC?
G: I was on holiday with my family and I was driving myself home on a 9 hour drive and it was a Sunday
and I was just in floods of tears thinking about having to go back to my boring job the next day that was
really menial and going nowhere it felt like. I just felt like I needed something else. I remember squaring
myself up in a petrol station and getting back in the car thinking "Right, what can you do? What are you
good at? What are you passionate about?" So I started thinking about veganism and how I could spread
the message but not in a scary militant way. I wanted to make it fun, although it's a serious topic. I was
aware a lot of people are put off even talking about it because it is so serious. Vegans have a reputation
for being very in your face giving it "Meat Is Murder" so I thought how can I make this funny? Scottish
patter. It's so reachable and so many people just get it so I thought there must be something I can merge
here. By the time I got home that night I'd thought of half a dozen daft sayings in my head and the more I
thought about it the more buzzing I was getting. I sat and drew a big mind map of everything I could think
of that was about being Scottish, being vegan, looked for crossover. The next day I looked at it and
thought this is something - this could go somewhere. This all came from me hating my job and wanting to
be involved in vegan activism.

I couldn't believe it when I saw your stall at VC Fest - I just thought it was so different and amazing, so
clever and I ended up sending pictures to everyone. I was saying omg look at this! Do you think Scotland
is on the right track with veganism?

G: Definitely - especially the bigger cities like Glasgow and Edinburgh. I think we can now compete with the
big boys like Brighton, London etc. You always hear these things about Glasgow's the vegan capital,
Brighton's the vegan capital. I don't actually know who decides or who's taking some sort of census or
gathering stats but I think Glasgow could definitely stand in good stead towards being one of the best
vegan cities in the world just in terms of per head how many restaurants, festivals, markets, groups there
are. Even now when you go into restaurants in Glasgow that were typically not vegan friendly, you'll get
at least one option on nearly every menu. Scotland is definitely coming up the vegan ranks.

Yeah I agree you notice it everywhere now. So is DGC your only job now?
G: I've actually just come back from working as a vegan chef in Spain. I've now come back and got a couple
of part time jobs because I didn't want to come back into a full time position because that's happened to
me in the past where I've been dragged into that 9-5 thing where you come home at night, you don't
want to go to the gym, you want to go to bed, you don't want to work anymore, you don't want to do your
website. I'm saying you don't want to, you do want to but it's just that physical and mental draining of I've
just sat in an office for 8 hours looking at a computer working for someone else and I wish I had it in me
to be productive but I just don't right now. So the idea with the two part timers is that neither will
monopolise my time or my brain space and it'l hopefully let me have a wee bit more brain power to play
with but eventually if DGC was my full time gig I'd be absolutely thrilled. I'd love to have a shop - that
would be perfect.

And see when people ask you what you do for a living, and you mention this, what do they say?
G: First of all whenever anybody asks me what I do, I never tell them about anything apart from DGC. When
people say what do you do, people are quick to tell them about the thing they sit doing for 8 hours a day
to pay the bills and they don't actually care about it, they don't want to talk about it and they're not
interested in it. So I say, I run a vegan ethical clothing company because I think that's the most
interesting out of any of the things I do. When I tell people it's usually the reaction of "What? Run that by
me again". The I start to explain it and people don't really know what to make of it, as you said yourself it
is different. Different's a nicer word than niche, which is how I tend to think of it. Sometimes too niche I
think! But people tend to be interested to say the least whether they are vegan or not. I've gotten huge
interest at vegan events and then still people who are intrigued at non vegan events. People are used to
seeing angry and in your face vegan propaganda, so I guess this is a bit of a change. I know some of it
says vegan or plant based, but I don't think it immediately screams that it's a vegan activism brand. It's
more of a conversation starter which I like because it encourages people to talk to you on a more fun,
lighthearted level which I guess is a good way to raise awareness about a serious topic.

Do you think clothing is a good method of vegan activism?
G: I think being able to wear the message first of all, it brings people to you. If I take my market stall for
example, if people are wandering around and they see my stuff and they see me wearing it, they might
think I'm gonna have a chat to her because that seems like something I'd like to know more about, she
looks like she might know a bit about it, I'd like to learn a bit more. If you had a vegan business that didn't
use merchandise to raise awareness, you might be at a disadvantage because people might be caught
off guard in the sense that they wander over not knowing what you're about and then you just go into a
shpeel about veganism veganism veganism and that's them roped in. That's off putting. It makes me a bit
uncomfortable when I see it. I think if you have the chance to have hoodies, tote bags or tshirts etc it's
only gonna help your cause because it lets people know what they're getting into, it's their decision to
come and talk to you - it's on their terms.

Apart from the message you're sending, how is your brand ethical?
G: I have a fantastic supplier called Continental Clothing. After a lot of research, it was the only clothing
manufacturer that was not only affordable but 100% transparently ethical. And by ethical I mean their
ethics are consistently watertight - I'm aware the word ethical is thrown about a lot nowadays. My
collection is from their EarthPositive range - this means the energy used to make the clothing is largely
green (wind and solar based) and also the practices witin the factory are more economically friendly. All
of my collection is produced in India in an excellent state of the art factory where all staff are paid a living
wage, there is no child or forced labour, everyone has freedom of speech and association and there are
no exploitative practices whatsoever and this can be traced right to the top of the company. When I'm
buying clothes, I won't touch it unless I've verified the brand and I know where the clothes have come
from, so obviously I'm trying to reflect that in my brand too. Then they get printed by Wild & Kind CIC in
Glasgow using vegan ink - they work to help women and girls start their own businesses. At each stage
I've just tried to do something good. I could easily have just ordered in bulk from China and made a lot
more money but I couldn't sell that it wouldn't sit right with me. I couldn't preach veganism whilst having a

supply chain like that. I've just tried to make it ethical from end to end.

Does that come into your everyday life too - do you try to live an ethical lifestyle?
G: Yeah I do - I've been running DGC for just over a year now and the further I get into this business the
more I'm changing my whole lifestyle. I haven't shopped on the high street since I started this business - I
buy my clothes from eBay, depop, charity shops. My mum goes mad because she wants to go shopping
on a Saturday and I say right well we're going to the charity shops on Duke Street and she's wanting a
stoat about the Fort. It just starts to permeate your whole life and you feel yourself changing as a person
which then bleeds into your social group. I don't like the preach it just like I don't really like to preach
veganism to my friends and family because they know my lifestyle and if they're interested in it they'll
come to me and ask things. I'm just always conscious of pushing people away by being too in your face
about it - which I guess is quite a controversial way to be vegan because a lot of people would argue that
you need to be that way to be heard but that's maybe why I'm using DGC to do that for me!

I agree with you I think if you aren't in someone's face and they come to you it shows they actually want
to do it. Do you ever find yourself challenged by people, at your stal for example? Has anything ever
been brought to you that has helped develop your education about veganism?

G: An example for me was honey. I never really thought about it when I first started out, I didn't really eat it
anyway. Then I watched some videos about beehives and the manufacturing process and I thought oh
God that's a shaky one, how am I supposed to feel about that? That's the thing when you start out as a
vegan - it's never "What do I think about that?", it's always "What am I MEANT to think about that?". It's
like you feel there's a rulebook you need to memorise. For me now, I wouldn't touch honey but I know
people who do eat it so I guess it's just how you're comfortable with the lifestyle and the diet. Another
challenge I got was regarding some plastic plants I have displayed on my stall - a woman asked me how
I could promote veganism and have plastic decorations. And everything else was fine! Wooden hangers,
paper bags, metal rail. And I couldn't argue because she was right! Even though I've used them umpteen
times over the past year, they're plastic so how do you come back from that? So there's always room to
learn and improve. More specifically, not so much about veganism, but I have been challenged on some
of the language used before. I guess some people still think vegans should be these wholesome, hippy
beings who don't swear or drink - sometimes I get backlash from those types of vegans in fact! My brand
is just trying to prove that there's al kinds of vegans. You don't need to be a saint to be a vegan.

Your brand certainly challenges the stereotype. You're showing you can just be a nice normal funny
person and be a vegan obviously!

Of course! You can just be your run of the mill typical Glaswegian and be a vegan, you don't need to be
out doing all these extreme things - you can just be you.

What about your packaging - do you use plastic at all?
G: No we use recycled cardboard packaging.

I've seen a few "vegan" brands who are maybe more corporate who are wrapping all their stuff in plastic
and it makes you question are you doing that for money or for the real ethical reasons.

G: It really winds me up. There's an advert on the TV just now for a big haircare brand and they're pushing
this new "vegan" shampoo and conditioner range. But they're not a cruelty free brand. So to me that;s
kinda like ok but you're basically misleading people because your average Joe customer might not know
a lot about what vegan/cruelty free mean and what the difference is. Say someone had a daughter or
son who was vegan and theyt thought "Oh I'm gonna get that for my daughter!" and then the daughter
receives it and is like "Awk it's ~non cruelty free brand here~, I can't really use that cause it's not CF." So
there's all there little loopholes that they can manipulate and rely on people's ignorance to be like "Aw
well if it's vegan it must be CF", and often it's not. It's tricky to maneovre that.

Would you rather visit a totally vegan place to eat rather than a chain?
G: I definitely would for the most part rather support a vegan independant business over a chain. BUT - the
other side of that is that I think it's very important to suppot chains that are putting out vegan options. It's
about finding a balance - if you're gonna go for a big full bhoona meal then yeah go to your vegan
places, but if some chain brings out a new vegan cookie or a cooler or something, I think it's important to
pick one up just to drive up demand. Especially in places like this Costa we're in in Baillieston, here I'm
having a soy latte. It's important that places like this locally get the support when they're providing plant
milks (which I know they should have anyway) but I think some vegans would say nah not going there
they don't need my money without considering that the chain's put the effort it, done the market research
etc so you should go and prove that it was worth it otherwise what? They'll just can it. Then we get
nothing.

What about eating out with your friends - do they like coming with you to vegan places or prefer a non
vegan place with a vegan option for you?

G: We do a bit of both. A lot of my friends are really into vegan food now, partly due to my influence and
partly just how the world is going now. Sometimes my friends will even suggest going to a vegan place -
one of my friends loves the burgers in The 78 for example, even though he's not vegan. Even if I go
round to a friend's for dinner, sometimes they'll have cooked everyone the same vegan thing and it
always goes down well. There might be a few daft jokes made about it but it's all in jest. At the same time
I'm happy to go to a non vegan restaurant and get a vegan option. In fact some of my favourite dishes
are things found on the menu in non-vegan restaurants. Sometimes I find the vegans options in a non
vegan place are better because they've looked at it and gone right well this person can only have these
two options so we need to knock them right outta the park. A good example is Steak Cattle & Roll. From
the name alone it sounds like the biggest meat restaurant ever but I think it has some of the best vegan
options in Glasgow. It just shows you, I probably would never have gone there had they not really drove
their vegan menu on social media. It's the same as Costa, I think you need to go and make the effort to
try it at least.

Do you use your social media besides DGC to promote veganism?
G: Yeah I do, I have another Instagram account which is a food account that leans towards doing vegan
food on the cheap (@moneysavingvegan). As I said when I moved out of my mum's house and went
vegan, I was quite overwhelmed by all this stuff about the expense involved. I kept reading all this stuff
and I was like, there's just no way vegetables can be more expensive than meat. And they're not! You
just need to know what's in season, what time does the supermarket closest to you reduce everything
with the yellow stickers, get yourself down and all their veggies are gona be like 10p. Bulk cook vegan
chilli, soups etc, freeze it all. It was that that sort of got me into it then I started thinking I would quite like
to share this with people because I was aware a lot of people might be put off going vegan because of
the perceived expense. So people seem to quite like the posts on there. Then I share stuff on my
personal accounts too like if there's stuff on in Glasgow, new places opening or markets etc just to
spread the word.

Do you think those posts stick in people's heads?

G: I mean I think if you're careful and mix those posts in with a range of other posts on your personal
accounts, people are maybe more inclined to think aw that person's actually alright - if that makes sense!
Like if all you're going on about is being vegan people will switch off or be scared off. So again it's just
about showing people, look we are actually just normal people! Not saying my Instagram posts are pure
permeating peoples' minds for days as if they're like that days later "Aw man still thinking about her
post...". But I know myself if I'm just scrolling and I see something about like a new vegan place I'll be like
oh what was that?

What about the vegan cafes in Glasgow that don't make it obvious that they are only serving vegan food,
what's your thoughts?


G: I think about this quite often. I was out for lunch yesterday with my friend in the West End at a vegan
cafe. Now nowhere on their signage or nowhere inside is it advertised that it's only vegan food being
served but I think it's built up enough of a fan base now that they don't need to be explicit about stating it.
I think that's a really brave thing to do when you first open especially, like we're just gonna rely on people
knowing it's vegan. And I think most places are kinda doing that now - it's not necessary to tell people,
it's more just like aw here's our special today etc, like getting on with it. Plus a lot of them are selling
things that look a hell of a lot like meat so it's kinda a risk because sure you have your 3, 4, 5000 IG
followers and if they're all coming once a week then yeah you'll be rolling in it. But for new customers it's
a risk - I mean yeah you'll get people going who don't even know it's vegan and they'll eat and only
realise afterwards. There's pros and cons - but I do think it's brave to open a place and not be shouting
about it being a plant based menu.

It goes the other way too - knowing it's a full vegan menu might actually act as a deterrent for some
people. So the cafes in Glasgow, have you noticed an increase in the past few years?


G: I think there's a lot more choice, and I think it's getting more and more niche. So you're getting solely
Chinese vegan restaurants now, solely vegan bakeries etc. It used to be you'd go to a place and they'd
do you a pizza or a burger or whatever and it was just an all rounder and that's still great and really
handy but now you're at the stage where these really specialised places are opening too. That's great
too - but a lot of them are shutting. I don't know if it's because it's just too ambitious an idea for the
moment, might just be a bit too soon. I don't actually think there's any such thing as too ambitious
because you should always have ambition, but I think it's realy sad when you see these places shut
down so quickly, I'm like why are you shut? Why aren't people going there?

I think it's a lot to do with location. I know some great places that have had to shut just due to footfall in
the wrong place.

G: Yeah totally. A few years ago I looked into opening a vegan cafe myself and I kinda got so far with it but
it was just too big of a financial risk at the time. I thought, well there's your big players in Glasgow that
have been there for years and years and then there will be me and how am I gonna be god enough, how
will I compete with that, y'know that inner voice of doubt. Looking back it was a blessing in disguise
because I've started DGC and no one else is doing this. Plus I think thank God I didn't do that because
now Glasgow is just absolutely awash with incredible vegan places and I don't know that I could've kept
up with some of the phenomenal stuff that people are pulling out of their kitchens consistently. So I'm like
yeah I'll just leave it to you guys.

Yeah your brand is so unique, there may be other vegan clothing companies but yours is very different I
think.

G: I guess that's sort of been my golden ticket. If anyone else brought out similar stuff now, it's so specific
that hopefully people would go ahh that's what DGC are already doing. I mean sure the more the merrier
- I'll probably regret saying that! - but I think DGC has such a strong identity and voice that I'm sort of
protected and if anyone else brought out for example a Plants Ya Bas' tee and just changed the font it'd
be like nahhh. Whereas you get so many tees that say "VEGAN AF" or whatever but I guess DGC is
different because it's more niche.

Do you think now that you have increased confidence in your own ability, that you see activism through
DGC as more of a priority now?

G: Yeah definitely, I've met so many great people through this type of activism. I'd say I have as many
vegan friends I've met through the Glasgow community as I have non vegan friends from prior to being
vegan which is a lovely feeling. You meet people and it's like there's this immediate sigh of relief like we
both know what we think and believe and it's sort of dealt with. You don't need to go through that list of
questions - "Why do you do that? Where do you get protein? Do you not get bored? What do you eat?".
Not saying all non vegans ask them! But that pressure to provide answers is immediately gone with other
vegans and you can just talk about other things, you feel totally included. I've gone to vegan events and

dinners in the past and you don't even talk about being vegan! You just chat about work and films and
normal stuff. Yeah you might talk about it a bit because it's fun to discuss things but it's not the focus of
the evening. I think that's the misconception. As I say we are just normal people! I really like meeting
others vegans it's good.

How do you think the type of activism your brand uses along with cafes, social media etc compares to
your more radical forms of vegan activism like protests, raiding of slaughterhouses, chaining yourself to
buildings etc?

G: Well firstly I think those people are absolute heroes, I think that's amazing to be able to do that. I'm a big
follower of these groups and Glasgow Hunt Sabs etc, I think what they do is so brave and so cool and I
wish I could do stuff like that but I dunno maybe I'm a bit of a wuss I dunno! I think that sort of activism
will always have an important place because it's that stuff that gets on the news and in the papers and on
Facebook. It starts a conversation, whether good or bad between vegans and non vegans. As long as
you can get people talking, that's good. But, I think that type of activism by it's nature does rile people -
obviously that's the idea. We just need to ensure we are having a conversation instead of talking AT
people. As I said, I have nothing but respect for these people who go out into these places and chain
themselves up because they're so angry and passionate and put themselves at risk for their beliefs. I just
want to make sure that it gets balanced by a less radical more accessable type of activism like your
cafes, clothing brands, documentaries, petitions etc so that we have a very rounded approach to activism
and not relying on the more radical side to carry it. I mean when has radicalism ever resulted in anything
wholly positive in the end? It's like anything - making sure we approach it like right you guys look after
that stuff, he's doing the burgers and I'll cover the tees. Making sure everyone who wants to be involved
has a voice. Not everyone is gonna be the type of person who could go on a hunt sab or burst into a
slaughterhouse so it's just about making sure everyone has a chance to participate in activism in any sort
of form.

Yeah I agree, any sort of coverage on the media is a good thing for veganism. Even Piers Mor*an eating
the vegan sausage roll, it got people talking! People were spurred to go out and buy them after he was
moaning about it.

G: Haha yes just to spite him! That's what it's all about. I mean you'll get people starting with a t-shirt, then a
year later they're wearing it to their first hunt sab or slaughterhouse break-in. It helps you grow as a
person. If you can just have the confidence to take yourself out for your first vegan lunch - that's activism!
That's you being an activist! People maybe won't see it like that but that's what it is.

Yes and the thing about getting people to go is that they see that vegan food IS actually nice! I have
friends who might turn up their nose up but then they go and really enjoy it and say "Wow it's not just
salad!"

G: Well I mean clearly haha! I heard a rumour you're meant to be getting 5 portions of fruit and veg a day. I
mean that's just no gonny happen with me. It's just about showing people it's not hard. I take my friends
places and yeah, sometimes it's rotten. Sometimes even I go, nah we'll no be back here. But then other
times they'll ask me if it's definitely a vegan place because it's so good. We've associated food being nice
with food being non-vegan. So it's just about re-educating people that it's not the case.

What's your opinion on vegan celebrity advocates e.g athletes?

G: I mean that's something I just never saw coming with sportspeople. That just shows my own ignorance
about them, I'm totally dense about sport and I guess I had pre-conceived notions about them. I've just
went on about not being judged and there I've done it about them. I just assumed they had a very
specific diet and that it wouldn't ever occur to them to go plant-based and that it totally should've done
because I mean it's gonna be far more protein rich, absolutely zero cholesterol in a vegan diet etc. If you
were an athlete it's only gonna positively impact your body so why wouldn't you do it? Then around the
time of the Olympics I started reading interviews and I realised actually some of them are really into it.
Then this new doc that's out about vegan athletes, Game Changers, that looks brilliant. I mean obviously
professional athletes don't need me being like "Eh you should really try this", but it turns out a lot of them
already do it anyway. I'm excited to see the film because I think it'll provide a fantastic new set of role

models for people. Any sort of vegan celeb endorsement is positive of course, you've got people like
Miley Cyrus and Billie Eilish who are massive role models for young people anyway - saying that, I'm 26
and a massive Miley Cyrus fan! I mean you get the ones that come out with "Oh yeah I'm plant based
now" then they rock up at some awards ceremony in a leather dress or a fur coat. That's a big bone of
contention for me because you get these people claiming they're big animal lovers then they go to an
event wearing a dress made of meat. You're sitting there like you don't get it. But again, I think any sort
of endorsement is positive. Any sort of thing you can do or say to promote that type of lifestyle is good.
Maybe just try not to undo it by stepping out in fur.

Like Lewis Hamilton, he gets a lot of clothes made by Tommy Hilfiger and there was something to do
with a collar on a jacket that wasn't vegan and he sent it back to be changed. So things like that can
maybe go towards changing the attitudes of designers.

G: That's brilliant. Hasn't he also just announced he's opening a new chain of vegan restaurants too? How
great is that, someone like that has so much influence.

Yeah and coming from a sportsperson especially.
G: Well I mean we do not have the physical make-up to hunt and kill and eat raw meat so it's clear we
shouldn't be eating it anyway. Another one that pisses me off is actors and actresses that pop up in
these perfume ads, and I'll know for a fact they claim to be vegan in real life, then they're promoting a
brand that tests on animals, and it's like people are gonna buy that because you're in the advert. Some
people are gonna buy that thinking "Aw well she's a vegan so this perfume must be fine". I guess some
people are just into a plant based diet for health and don't think about animals or the planet at all. I mean
I don't get that but these people are out there. There's all types of vegans.

Do you think your aim through your brand's acitivism is to encourage people to go completely vegan or
would you feel as happy knowing you'd encouraged someone to make one small change?

G: I mean ideally if I could get someone to go vegan, that would be amazing. But like I said before, any
small change is great. I've been in work environments before, say in the canteen, where someone's
eating something like a ham sandwich and they're sort of like "Aw is this ok? Sorry.", then they'll go away
and get a soy latte and be like "Look!" and I feel like going, I'm not here to keep score on what you're
eating, that's great you don't need to prove yourself to me type of thing. But yeah obviously that is better
that someone going and buying a dairy coffee. It's just about making sure people know I'm not gonna be
glaring at them as though "Well no your soy coffee doesn't just cancel out your ham sandwich". It's about
encouraging people to try a vegan alternative. It's far too much to expect people to do it overnight. As I
said, I was lucky because I was raised basically veggie so when I decided to go vegan I was just
swapping out my milk etc and educating myself about cleaning products, makeup etc. But for someone
who's lived their whole life as a carnivore and consuming dairy, then all of a sudden it's everywhere and
every night on the news they're sitting like what's this about the planet now? It's overwhelming. So any
little change will make a difference.

Do you think it's a lot to do with how you're brought up? I mean as kids we are given milk before we can
even talk, what'a your thoughts about that?

G: I mean definitely, when I was at school I remember they used to show us this plate and it was sort of
divided up into five bits, and one was for carbs and one for fat and one for fruit & veg, then one of the
biggest bits was for meat and dairy. Obviously you're not questioning it when you're seven, but now it's
interesting to look back and think would they even get to show kids that now? I think all processed meats
now are classed as Level 1 carcinogens - so how you gonna sell kids that stuff you got when I was wee
that was like processed sandwich meat that was shaped like a teddy bear's face or something. Even
when I was wee every day at playtime you'd be given a carton of milk. And that was it, they never asked
you about it or taught you anything about it. I don't know if they still do that in schools but I mean I'd
imagine that's something that has changed in the past twenty years. It's all to do with the environment
you're brought up in I guess, I mean I have absolutely no judgement for people who have raised non
vegan kids because that's what they've been taught and it's all they know. I find most people are just
trying to get by, make ends meet, buying whatever they think is cheapest. Not to sound patronising but I

think it's a case that some people just don't realise that chickpeas are typically cheaper than ham, so
obviously you're gonna buy ham if you think that's what's best. I do think things are getting better though,
whether that's down to people trying to educate themselves or whether it's just in the media so much that
they can't help but hear about it.

You do get those people though who have heard and seen all the facts and are still set on ignoring it.
G: That's true, some people are and will always be resistant to it. Yeah in a sense, you can only really take
what you've been shown to an extent but it is also your responsibility to feed your kids and yourself well
and to find out what is best for the planet and then strive to do that. And if you're not gonna do that then
you can't really moan that we're getting four seasons in one day because guess what? That's caused by
animal agriculture. So you can't exactly be sitting there with a bucket of KFC saying "Awk this weather's
crap int it?". It's just about understanding that you do have a certain level of responsibility too.

Yeah I recently shared a post on Facebook about the Amazon fires and things you could do to help
prevent something like it happening again and one of them was cut meat from your diet, and someone
actually commented laughing. I thought you just don't get it, sheer ignorance.

G: Well I mean how do you you even reason with someone who's just gonna laugh at you? I saw one the
other day two, a list of really small easy things you could do to help prevent climate change from getting
worse and at the bottom it said, remember we're trying to tell this to some people who called 999 when
KFC ran out of chicken. Some people will just always be resistant to it.

Yeah but that's where something small like buying a t-shirt can plant the seed in people's minds.
G: Exactly! It all makes such a difference if it's on their terms.